I was nervous about meeting Shorty, more so than any other girl I’ve met thus far.  It didn’t help that the evening was off to an inauspicious start and I hadn’t even arrived yet.  Instead I was stuck in traffic.  I ditched the highway for the service road, which was only marginally better.  Finally I passed the source of congestion: there was an accident.  In the shoulder.  All three lanes of traffic were clear, but everybody – including those on the service road – had to stop and look.  Why?  Because people are stupid and that’s what they do, no matter how long I laid into the horn to express my displeasure.

Once I got back on the highway I did my best to make double time.  Unfortunately I ran into another rolling roadblock, i.e. a driver from Virginia.  Every driver from Virginia that comes to NY decides to get in the left lane and go 60.  Tip: when you’re in NY, don’t get in the left lane and go 60 when the speed limit is 55.  You either go 75-80 or you GTFO of the way.

At some point during all this hubbub I managed to call Shorty and tell her I was running late and why.  Thankfully she was understanding.  I only got there 15 minutes late.  She met me outside and we hugged.  First non hand-shaker in a while.  However my physical attraction to her was a bit “meh.”  Nonetheless I had resolved to give her a chance.  That was despite the fact that she was such a fussbucket trying to find an appropriate restaurant to go to.  She Googled every one of my suggestions and changed her mind every time she offered one of her own.  Sheesh.

Anyway. We were seated, we were wined and dined, and between my glass of red and the three hours of sleep the night before (too keyed up) I was getting rather silly.  Enter offensive jokes.  Fortunately she was of the same mind I was, and not only that but she was the first girl I’ve met that didn’t want kids either.  Home run!  Score!  Schwing!  There were a couple of things during our conversation that gave me pause, but more on that later.

Dinner was over, and afterwards we somehow ended up at a Starbucks.  Sigh.  Even though I’ve sworn them off, they still seem to find me.  And even though we’d been together for two hours at this point (JBlondie, take note), we were still a bit nervous and awkward around each other.  It was also getting a bit late so I suggested that I walk her to her car.  Smooth.

Soon we were standing next to her car, and I shuffled my feet a bit and asked whether I could kiss her.  Indeed I could.  So I grabbed her and pulled her close and we kissed.  And kissed.  And kissed some more.  She tossed her pumpkin crappuchino or whatever the hell it was so she could grip me better, and I heard it splatter somewhere in the parking lot.   Our vertical wrestling match went on for several minutes until we finally ended it and said good night.

It was a bit… underwhelming.  I dunno, it felt like I was kissing myself, I don’t know how to describe it.  But she just about told me that things are only going to get more physical from here on out.  So needless to say, we’re going on a second date.

First dates:  19
Second dates:  1
Third dates:  1
Cancellations:  3
Stood up:  2
First kisses: 1
Sexual experiences:  0.5

44 thoughts on “Lips

      • There isn’t always fireworks. When my now girlfriend and I first kissed there was no fireworks, it was long and slow and pleasant.

        When I headed back to my hotel (because as you know she lives hundreds of miles away and this was our second date so no sleepover expected – though it did happen the following night) I don’t think my feet touched the floor!

  1. Looks like the loss of the V-card is imminent. Will the title of your blog name change in that event?

    Also, it seems like she unnecessarily wasted her pumpkin cappuccino! She could have just as easily carefully placed the cup on the floor and then proceeded to kiss you.

  2. Hm I’m torn. You’re a virgin so part of me suggests you just fuck her anyways despite kissing her is like kissing a mirror.

    Although, I’ve never wanted to fuck anyone who I didn’t want to make out with forever. You’ve got to have that passion of yes please rip my clothes off otherwise sex tends to be an even bigger disappointment.

    But everyone’s virginity story sucks. I’m also now shaking people’s hands hoping someone shits on the floor from now on.

  3. Don’t ask if you can kiss a girl. Instant ladyboner killer. It sounds like she liked you enough still that it didn’t totally kill the mood, so that’s good. Hopefully after the next date you’ll still really like each other, and it’ll go somewhere. If not, though, just go for it in the future when you want to kiss someone and you’re feeling the vibe.

    • I love it when a guy asks to kiss me…builds suspense and shows me he’s a gentlemen. Don’t get me wrong, men taking control is fucking hot…but I like the fact that if a guy asks…I can still say no. haha.

    • Totally disagree – my bf asked to kiss me and I thought it was incredibly sweet! Nice change from the chain of douches who used to force their tongue down my throat.

      But different strokes for different boats

      • Yeah, definitely. I want a manly man who can read my body language and take me. My boyfriend didn’t ask after our first date, and he didn’t force his tongue down my throat either. In fact, he kinda drew it out and made me wait before he wrapped me up in his arms and gave me a tender, passionate kiss that made my knees weak. It would have absolutely ruined the moment if he asked.

  4. I knew “it” would finally happen when you were truly “ready,”
    just like no one can actually die until they’re truly ready.

  5. I agree…don’t ask to kiss. I much prefer a man who can take control of the situation. There might be some women who like it, but honestly I see it as a sign of strength and confidence when a man just goes for it.

    She obviously liked kissing you or it wouldn’t have continued. Given your situation, I would just go for it…get the losing your virginity thing out of the way. It might be underwhelming, but then it’s done. And then you can keep going and find someone who curls your toes so much you actually put her on the hood of her car and have sex with her right. there.

    Good luck 🙂

  6. Yay!!!! OMG!!! I’m so fucking excited for you 🙂 I’ve only had two men ask to kiss me and I loved it!!! ❤ Good job. I think this was the right choice for you given your limited experience. The women above are right in the fact that men taking control is hot but I also didn't want you mis-reading the signs…hence why I suggested you ask. From now on you can just go in for the kiss. Maybe drinking wine on more of your dates would help you loosen up lol…

    • That’s a good point, his lack of experience means he could misread the signs. If any woman is prepared to cast a guy aside because he doesn’t kiss her at the time she decides is the right time, then they are being unduly harsh. Either that or they have so many options they can be so mercenary. So come on ladies, cut him some slack!

      • The reality is that most women who do online dating have more than enough options to write someone off who doesn’t go for the kiss when they should and how they should. A man judges attractiveness and sexual compatibility a.k.a. “spark” immediately (usually) because they are visual creatures. If a women isn’t totally sure then first kiss is what decides it. And if that first kiss isn’t good, it can absolutely kill a man’s chances, even if they thought the “spark” was there. If a guy asked me for a kiss instead of going in for one, it would be an automatic no and good luck in the future, no matter how cute I thought he was. But that is because for long-term compatibility I need a dominant man who will take charge. I won’t waste my time with someone who isn’t like that. Granted, not all women think like me, especially now that traditional relationships are out of vogue, but I would bet there are more who put a lot of weight on a first kiss than those who don’t. Calling a woman “unduly harsh” for a preference on a first kiss would be akin to calling a man “unduly harsh” for having a preferred body type or not being into a woman who he didn’t feel attracted to.

        • I disagree, it is not the same thing. Making your date walk a tightrope, always looking for tiny errors, the slightest mistake for which to cast him aside, treating it like a game show where you can so easily lose is unduly harsh – it’s more than a little controlling too.

          A similar example would be a man expecting you to know whether he wants you to pay your half of a meal, or you pay for the drinks because he bought you dinner, and then deciding he doesn’t want another date with you because you made the wrong choice purely on this one issue.

          How would you feel if a man you date (such as my example above) would gladly pay for your meal so long as you paid for the drinks but he won’t actually tell you this because you’re supposed to know or otherwise work it out from his subtle hints. Then he decides because you didn’t pick up on his subtle hints that you are not worth the bother and decides to try someone else who will pick up on his subtle hints at the times that he needs them to do so.

          If this happened to you over and over again, wouldn’t you get frustrated? Wouldn’t you ask why men are not cutting you some slack on a minor issue and why they are casting you aside because of one error?

          As men we can never win. We’re supposed to know when is the right time. If we move in and you’re not feeling it, we’re thrown aside for being too forward. When you’re feeling it and we’re not sure, we’re thrown aside for not being forward enough.

          BM7, I think you’re cool and we have had some great discussions on here and on my own blog, but I find your position on wanting a dominant male to be a mass of contradictions at times. It seems you want to set the rules and decide how a man should act… and in that, from my point of view you are the dominant one in your relationships. A truly dominant man would never allow himself to be pushed into that position, otherwise he is not dominant, surely?

          I’m not criticising at all, of course you have the right to reject men who don’t fulfil your expectations, just as they have the right to reject you because they are not comfortable with your expectations of them – I just find you a bit confusing sometimes.

          • I’m pretty good at reading people, but even if I weren’t your example is not even close. It is socially understood and accepted and expected that if a date goes well, you kiss, and owners is on the man most of the time. That’s the society we live in. If it were equally socially accepted and expected for a woman to buy the drinks if the man pays for dinner, then we would be taking about the same thing.

            As for dominance, I don’t push my boyfriend to do anything. He just does because he is dominant. He’s alpha, and that is what is attractive to me because I am an alpha female. I am absolutely in charge of everything in my work life, in my school life, and in virtually every aspect of my world outside of home. So I need a man who takes the reigns and let’s me just be when I’m at home. It is amazing to be taken, to be cared for, and to have traditional roles in my relationship where he is head of household and I can trust him to drive the ship. You will find that a lot of powerful women are the same way. A man who needed direction on how to be a strong man wouldn’t work for me.

            It’s clear that the writer on this blog isn’t dominant. So maybe he should play to that, but he should know that there is a large portion of the female population who won’t like it. It’s fine to be a submissive man, but don’t expect women who want a strong man to like you.

            However, he lacks a great deal of experience, and maybe he isn’t sure where he falls on that spectrum. As he becomes more confident, he may want to appeal to that segment of the female population who finds a passive, needy, permission-asking man a turnoff. I simply want to offer the point of view of and perspective so that he doesn’t shut the door to an entire segment of datable women. I’m 29, so I know what’s out there in his age range, and before I found my boyfriend I dated quite a few men who I thought were duds. Certainly not all women are like me, but he should be aware of what the women he dates could be thinking.

            • It might sound ridiculous to you, but it is the experience of many men. My guess is that you have never been on a date with a woman, therefore your dismissal of the notion that some women treat it like a game show, and put men on a proverbial tightrope so she can wait for him to put a single foot wrong in order to dismiss him, does not come from experience.

              I had to go back and check, you commented on a post on my blog on this subject some time ago. I had a date with a woman I called The Sergeant. She did indeed treat our date like a game show and I was not prepared to play.

              It isn’t always the case that if a date goes well that a kiss should follow. A friend of mine had several amazing dates with a woman he is now in a relationship but here rule is not to kiss before about date 5 or 6 regardless of how well it is going. I had a great first date with my now girlfriend, but we did not kiss until our second date. It may have been welcomed if I had tried on that first date, I am still not sure about that, she was definitely giving the signs that she fancied me, but of course it doesn’t matter because it happened later and the rest is history. Our relationship is very symbiotic. Sometimes she lets me get on with it, and other times I am more than happy to let her take over. This is the modern dynamic of relationships.

              By your admittance earlier, we now live in a world where gender roles are far more blurred and women are more than happy to pay – and practically all of those I dated between my divorce and my new relationship insisted on paying their own way. This is now the norm.

              I notice you avoided answering my question so let me ask you this. Imagine if a man you dated had a certain expectation from you and you failed to fulfil it on a date – it could be anything. Now imagine he decided that you were not worth a second date, no matter how well it went, because of your faux pas. Would you not see that as a minor thing, would you not think him a little too harsh or too easily dismissive? Would you not think it reasonable mistake to make, worthy of overlooking?

            • I didn’t answer your question directly because your scenario was nowhere near analogous. Your comment about a gameshow was aimed at my saying that it would turn me off to have a man ask to kiss me. Certainly some people, not just women, treat dating like a game. But not being attracted to a submissive man isn’t a game. It’s just as legitimate as a man not being attracted to a certain type of woman.

              So to your question about if I would feel like a man who had a standard that I didn’t meet was too harsh… No, I wouldn’t. Because his standard or expectation doesn’t have to do with being harsh to me or anyone. It is about his preferences. And it simply means that we aren’t compatible.

              Now, if I kept hitting against the same standard or expectation in other men, then instead of blaming them I would stop and take a look at myself. No one is owed a second date, and people should have standards. You can’t actually be saying that people shouldn’t be picky about who they want to date and potentially spend a good portion of their time with.

            • I didn’t answer your question directly because your scenario was nowhere near analogous. Your comment about a gameshow was aimed at my saying that it would turn me off to have a man ask to kiss me.

              No it wasn’t, it was aimed at your dismissal of the experience of some men that there are women who treat dating like a game and merely wait for him to make a minor error so she can dismiss him – which has been my point all along.

              No one is owed a second date,


              and people should have standards.

              Of course, as did I when I dismissed The Sergeant as a potential second date because we were clearly not a match personality-wise.

              You can’t actually be saying that people shouldn’t be picky about who they want to date

              Absolutely not, yet you continue to persist in the belief that that is what I mean. Saying you want a certain type of person in a partner is one thing but it is quite another to dismiss someone on something as minor as not kissing you at the designated time. From one perspective, that goes beyond having standards and appears controlling, demanding perfection that few people actually live up to.

              If reading TUV’s and my blog has taught you anything, it is that we too have our doubts, and it doesn’t make us weak or pathetic. We too get unsure and nervous at times. I imagine even alpha male types have moments of doubt, because they are not robots.

              My now girlfriend was very nervous when we met, should I have dismissed her because of her nerves? Had I been a close personal friend of yours, would you have advised me to do so?

            • If that was something that was your standard, then I wouldn’t advise you that your preferences don’t matter. It’s not arbitrary to want a man to make the first move or to want a confident, take charge type. It seems that you are offended because you are a man who wouldn’t make a strong move by kissing a woman who you were into on a first date. I don’t know why you find that position and standard, which many women share, too be that outlandish. It seems to me like it has to do with your lack of confidence.

              Let me give you an example. I had a second date with a man who was so nervous on our first date that his hands were literally shaking. He didn’t go for a kiss, but I still have him a second shot. I shouldn’t have. It was clear to me almost immediately that we weren’t compatible. It was more cruel to give him the hope that a second date provides when he wasn’t my type. It also made it infinitely more difficult to explain why a third date would never be in the cards. It’s better and kinder to end things before they get started than to invest extra time and energy into something and someone that isn’t right for you.

            • I’m not offended at all, why presume that purely because I disagree with you? I have bags of confidence compared to where I was two years ago. My past is similar to TUV but I am in a much different place now and I am trying to encourage him as a fellow male to set his own boundaries and decide what he wants and what is important to him.

              So no, I am not offended, I am simply trying to get to the bottom of why anyone could so easily and readily dismiss another person on the basis of something so minor as not delivering a kiss at a designated time. Because, to use another analogy, if a man tried to kiss you and you decided you’d prefer to wait until the second date, and he dismissed you for not being receptive to his kiss, I’m sure that you too would think he was being petty or playing games.

              I am also scratching my head in confusion that you say you want an alpha male but that you would dismiss a man for not doing what you want. If you will only date alpha males then surely you should have figured out by now that they are their own person and will kiss you when they want, not when you want? Please don’t assume I am mocking you, I genuinely want an explanation for what to me seems a critical contradiction.

              Let me give you another perspective. I have several female friends who have said in the past that they were into a guy on a first date, but that he never kissed them and they were glad that he didn’t – not because they weren’t comfortable at that point, but because it builds the tension and makes them want more for the second date. It creates fireworks. So your point of view is not the only valid one here, and TUV would do well to consider all potential perspectives and decide for himself what he is comfortable with; there are clearly good reasons not to kiss somebody on a first date even if you are really into them.

            • It seems that you are offended because you’re reaction to a very common means of measuring the success of a date and the compatibility of a potential mate (the first kiss experience) is so extreme.

              No, I wouldn’t think that a man who was turned off by me rejecting his kiss was petty or playing games because it is a completely valid and natural viewpoint. People date to find a romantic partner not a good buddy. If I turn you down for a kiss on the first date it’s because I’m not feeling you. A second date wouldn’t work for me, either. I’ve already turned him down, so why would I expect him to take me on another date? Why would I think that is petty? Physical chemistry is amazingly important. If I can’t see myself kissing you after a first date then I probably will never want to.

              If an alpha male is attracted to a women, he goes for it. There may be a rare exception, but I’ve never met a high powered alpha male who didn’t take what he wanted: in business, in life, and with relationships. If an alpha male doesn’t kiss you after a first date it’s because he doesn’t want to and won’t want to. They don’t waste their time pussyfooting around. That’s one of the most appealing things about them.

              To assume that tension can’t be built up within a first date for that delicious kiss at the end of the night shows a lack of awareness about dating. There can absolutely be phenomenal fireworks with a first date kiss. You’ve had (presumably) hours, days, or weeks (hopefully not that long, but for arguments sake) of texting, messages, and other forms of communication before the date. Follow that with hours of tension and flirting during a (good) first date. If you don’t already have sexual tension, then you’re doing something wrong or the chemistry isn’t there. Not only that, but after that amazing first date kiss you leave them wanting more and longing for the second date. Until then they have you and the kiss on their mind, in their dreams, and the feeling lingering on their lips.

            • Nope, still not offended. I refer you back to my previous comments. If you haven’t figured out by now what I am getting at then there’s no point me trying to explain it again.

          • I also don’t think that wanting a man to be emotionally intelligent enough to know if a date is going well and a woman is interested in him is asking him to “walk a tightrope.” That’s ridiculous. It is super easy to pick up on flirting and know a good date from a bad one. If you lack that perception, you’ve got major social problems already, most likely. It’s definitely not “treating it like a game show” to say that some things are attractive and others really aren’t. Missing cues that a woman wants a kiss is NOT difficult, and it isn’t a slight mistake. When a woman is really into you, it’s easily apparent.

  7. Yesss! Exciting development. You’ve got a fanclub by now! Key question after the last post, did you text her after?

    While I personally prefer someone to just kiss me instead of ask (assuming they have judged the situation correctly), I’d rather they ask than try to kiss when I’m not up for it- that’s just awkward.

    Also, on the length of date thing- if my date cuts it after 1 hour (which has only happened once as long as I can remember), I would assume he’s not interested. Even mediocre first dates last at least 2 hours, good ones might go on for 4 or so, which might sound crazy to you but sometimes you just don’t want to leave.

    Some of the people I’ve ended up having the best chemistry with started with an awkward or unsatisfying first kiss. I’ll be rooting for a second date!

  8. Exciting update!! Sounds like you’re off to a great start with her. 🙂 I wouldn’t worry about not feeling intense sparks/fireworks after your first kiss. It was only the first date after all. Looking forward to hearing how date #2 goes!

  9. My 2 cents on the kissing topic:

    I am one of those weird people who would like to be asked (until I know the person better, then it’s all clear), but even I know it has great potential to spoil the mood.

    My solution is to be the initiator instead. 😉

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